标题: CFA, Princeton MFin or MIT MFin which way to go for Risks ca [打印本页] 作者: chetan86 时间: 2013-8-11 10:32 标题: CFA, Princeton MFin or MIT MFin which way to go for Risks ca
I have a friend who has spent 10 years in Investment Banking on the IT side (Systems Analyst)…but is now trying to switch career. He has told me he would like to get into Risks Management but wasn’t sure what specific program would help him get there. He is now 40 and leaning towards one of these programs: CFA, Princeton MFin or Mit MFin. He has looked at the FRM but wasn’t convinced the FRM can do the trick. He found an MBA too generic. I know there are some pretty smart folks in this forum who can provide some pretty solid opinions on this type of questions.
1. Is it advisable to switch career in his 40s?
2. What program would be advisable given the stated career goal in Risks Management?
Please help!作者: cfalevel2011 时间: 2013-8-11 10:34
1. No
2. An MFin from MIT is more prestigious than one from Princeton; If he’s really serious, he should also do the CFA while working on his MFin (I’m assuming he won’t be working while doing his MFin).作者: redskins44 时间: 2013-8-11 10:35
I think that if he wants to switch careers in his mid-40’s, there better be a REALLY big pot of gold at the end of that rainbow. I’m not sure that it’s worth it.
And I would take a grad degree from MIT over Princeton or the CFA Charter.
PS - don’t listen to a Level 1 candidate about doing CFA while doing a grad degree. He has no idea what he’s in for at Levels 2 or 3.作者: Swanand 时间: 2013-8-11 10:36
To switch to risk management, maybe he should go for the CFA and then start applying for positions. Not many of the students from Princeton or MIT are aspiring for risk management careers and being admitted at 40 with previous IT experience will not be easy. Both schools admit candidates with good academic credentials, good GMAT/GRE and some relevant experience.
Princeton is actually more difficult to get in and they admit way fewer candidates compared with MIT. Admission rate is 4% for Princeton and about 8% for MIT. Princeton’s program is more quantitative, and MIT’s is more general.
Writing the CFA while finishing graduate degree is very doable if you are in a MFin program. I took level II a few days after my finals at MIT MFin last June and found it really easy. The one year of rigorous finance training would give you very deep knowledge in finance, including theoretcial and analytical contents that are not in the CFA curriculum. Took level III last week and found it quite doable as well if you were still in the program. You would be surprised by how easy you find those AM essay questions, compared with essay questions on MIT’s finance finals…作者: busterbluth 时间: 2013-8-11 10:38
It’s hard as ish to get into the MIT and Princeton programs. He would need to have a solid math background and to be honest those programs are usually more interested in professor recommendations than employer recommendations. Not sure how well he has kept in touch with his professors from college.作者: firat 时间: 2013-8-11 10:39
Few more details about the dude:
1- He is exactly 40…not mid 40.
2- He doesn’t mind quiting his current job in mid town Manhattan to do whatever it takes to meet entrance requirements and put down the 108K (MIT MFin) and close to 100K+( MFin Princeton) or CFA (the cheapest in $$$ terms).
3. He is bored with IT and doesn’t see any growth potential in his current role. Though getting $6figures annual in his current job.
4. Knowing that he is 40, he’s planning to make a decision as quickly as end of June 2013 as he cannot afford to lose Fall 2014 semester if he has to go back to school.
5. He really wants a blunt and direct assessment of his situation from people who understand Risks management business so he doesn’t make any stupid decision.
Thanks作者: OmarAdnan 时间: 2013-8-11 10:40
^ So he has not actually applied to either Princeton or MIT yet, right? Does he have any reason to believe that either program will accept him?作者: DSquaredSlim 时间: 2013-8-11 10:41
Well, I have no experience in Risk Management, and I’m not in the business, so take my advice for what it’s worth (which is probably nothing).
I think that unless you’re already working in the industry, it’s hard to break in with the CFA charter. It might be easier with an Ivy-ish master’s, but that’s predicated on the fact that you your friend gets into school, which is honestly probably not very likely.
Since you your friend works in IB, why doesn’t he just talk to some of the people there? Being in IT, he probably has access to the supervisors and other suits–maybe he can get some insight from them as far as what is a good way to go. They would be a better source of info than some random people on an anonymous forum (about half of which will tell you they have no experience, and the other half will pretend like they DO have experience).
Your friend may be bored with IT, but I’m not sure that Risk Management will be a whole lot better. (I used to work Internal Audit–probably similar to RM–and it was one of the most boring jobs in the world.)
Your friend says that he makes six figures, and doesn’t see any growth potential. If he takes an entry-level RM job, he will probably take an entry-level job, and back on the very bottom of the totem pole. It will take years to get back to the level he’s at now.
Your friend lives in Mid-Town Manhattan–why not consider NYU or Columbia? That way he gets a top-notch school and doesn’t have to move.
Your friend wants to know immediately what to do, because he can’t afford to wait. I say that he’ll be far worse off if he makes a rash, uninformed decision. Better to do nothing than to do something stupid.作者: anshultongia 时间: 2013-8-11 10:42
He strongly believes he can get in either Princeton or MIT MFin with his quant background ( Courant Institute of Math) + programming languages (C++, Java) + tons of experiences in the industry + industry recommendations, his main effort will be on crushing the GRE or GMAT.
He has not applied yet… but has pulled most the materials to do so. Deadlines are towards the end of the year 2013.
I told him not to rush…and wait to hear from folks in this forum.作者: parott 时间: 2013-8-11 10:43
Given the fact pattern, here’s what I would do:
1. Sign up for the December CFA L1 exam.
2. Crush GRE or GMAT.
3. Actually apply to Princeton and MIT.
4. Sit for CFA L1 in December.
5. Wait for CFA results and decisions from MIT and Princeton.
6a. Go to MIT if accepted.
6b. If not accepted to MIT, go to Princeton if accepted.
6c. If not accepted to MIT or Princeton, await L1 results and hopefully sign up for June L2.作者: brainsX 时间: 2013-8-11 10:45
Heard that MFE grads from Berkley get $150k+ offers. Money wise seems like a money losing decision to switch to finance. Opportunity cost of say $120/yr (current job) + additional $80k/yr (tuition, living expenses) total of $200k/yr .
Probably easier and cheaper to crack in with ultra strong programming background combined with 3 levels of CFA to get into a quant role that leverages tech knowledge. Doubt there are many fin grads without computer science degree or programming experience, who can dare to write a single line of code in c++…So he has a very fair chance and little competition from fin grads with zero programming aptitude or skills at a quant shop that will pay equally for tech or fin skills.
Great and creative software engineers have 20x more opportunity than pure finance people…作者: yodacaia 时间: 2013-8-11 10:47
My take (for what it is worth).
Your 40 year old frined isn’t getting into MIT MSF (MFin now I guess but it was MSF back when it started a few years ago) or Princeton MFin. MIT because he is not the student they are looking for. 5 minutes on thier website will let your frined know that they are looking for either freshouts or pretty close to it. The problem with princeton is that it is more prestigious - it has been around longer and MIT is expanding its intake so there is still some question about “quality” (relative to other top programs). Your friend would need near perfect quant scores on the GMAT/GRE and mid 700s total. I would tell your IT friend that with his tech background he may be a better fit for CMU MSCF but then again most of those guys only have a couple of years of experience… There are way more MFE programs around now then there used to be so getting into one I don’t think will be a problem, but competition is way too tough for the big big boy programs for someone in their 40s to crack it (my take - again for what it is worth). Also as a side bar if he is serious then the CFA will not be worth the time he spends studying. He should find his weak spots and address:
GMAT/GRE quant
Stat - SLM, multi variable regressions, stochastic prosess, time-series, bayesian stat, advanced prob
Math - ODE/PDE, Real Analysis I&II, Numerical Methods, Stochastic Calc, anything higher is gravey
Programming - C++, SAS, R/Matlab
if any of the above are weak then spending time getting strong in them will go farther than clearing level X of the CFA…作者: Muddahudda 时间: 2013-8-11 10:48
Thank you all… I think you guys expressed enough avenues for him to think over (many of which I agree). I did not want to inject my personal opinions upfront.
I copied the posts sent them in an email…with the link to AF website for him to join the conversation. He will read through and make up his own mind.
Now my opions on his case:
1. His age: 40. He waited too long to think about his switch. He should have done this may be 6 or 8 years ago.
2. The opportunity cost.The dude is already making $150K/yr+bonus and there is no pressure on him to quit the job. Per AstuteInvestor’s calculation above the opportunity cost would be something around $250K +interests. This is too much. Maybe his real best option is the FRM or the PRM as bchad suggested then leverage his quant/technical background but he doesn’t seem to see any value in pursuing the FRM.
@Pennyless: For the CFA it would take @ minimum 3-4 years to clear if he is very lucky. I heard in this forum of a Russian who just sat for CFA L2 this June the 6th straight times and yet predicting another failure. He will be 44 by then with no exposure to Finance Practice (not coding). You are almost done with the CFA after an MIT MFIN degree. My dude has zero fornal Finance knowledge let alone accounting. He has been coding for risks analytics applications and is very good at it.
If Jayman_137 is correct then he will never be accepted in MIT MFin for his age (though I have a small doubt on this). But Pennyless can shed some light on this since he said he is an MIT MFin Graduate.
@Spunboy: Please when you find something new from your manager please shoot one more post.
If, after reading all these posts, he still wants to go to MIT or Princeton, he can apply Higgmond’s recipe or his own.
Thanks again to all for sharing your opinions作者: d2rockstar 时间: 2013-8-11 10:49
Way too old for either program.作者: bkballa 时间: 2013-8-11 10:50
Age is an issue, and no doubt going to be a challenge, but if you have family or good friends in the business, that can change everything, particularly if they are at a smaller firm outside of the major financial centers.
Good universities have powerful networks and recruiting programs, so that is an important resource too.
In good times, firms tend to want risk managers that are subservient and easier to control, so it helps to hire younger: who wants to be told to cut back on risk when its been paying off so well in the recent past. In crises and afterwards, they want to beef up the risk management for their clients to see that money is safe, so they like to hire older, where age connotes experience more (whether its true or not).作者: d2rockstar 时间: 2013-8-11 10:51
Princetons MFIN is the toughest to get in kid. They are all Chinese with perfect GRES none of them are close to 40.作者: Howd 时间: 2013-8-11 10:53
Princeton MFin is the most prestigious and selective program of its kind. They only accepted 4.5% this year; most of the students went to top schools, got 3.8+ GPAs in quant majors, and a lot of them have great work experience too. MIT leans very young; average work experinece is only like 1 year, so your friend has no shot there. Princeton is open to older candidates, but 40 is pushing it.作者: mkytz15 时间: 2013-8-11 10:54
1. Lots of people won’t be able to handle to academic rigor of either of these programs or other similar ones at age 40, no matter how good they were when they were 20. These are NOT like MBA programs (or executive MBA programs) where networking is the #1 priority.
2. I attended one of the other top quant master’s programs and there is no question in my mind that Princeton >>>>> MIT for their respective quant finance masters programs. Princeton may be a small program, but it is very elite and everybody knows it. MIT is one of the newest programs out there and in my opinion, primarily living off the MIT brand for the time being. The two most important factors for these programs is quality of students and strength of the career center. Princeton wins in the first category and MIT will need a couple years before catching up to ANY of the older programs with established networks.作者: genuinecfa 时间: 2013-8-11 10:55
If I didn’t know any better, turning 40 is a death sentence with no further potential. I bet there are plenty of 40+ year olds out there that can compete just fine with the mid 20 crowd.
I looked at the Princeton program and you guys act like it’s rocket science. The core classes look easier than a sophomore year electrical engineering program. I understand that the students are probably some of brightest in the world, but an engineering degree from any reputable school is probably more difficult.
